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Author
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Topic: Domingo Ortega
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DB in PDX
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 11:55 AM
   
Man, Jeff you are relentless!My guess is you've gone about as far as you can go. Mr. Carrillo, Mr. Acila, and the rest aren't about to admit to any knowing fraud, and I for one would just as soon give them the benefit of the doubt. I have a 1a Ricardo Sanchis that I bought from James of Zavaletas. He told me, and it says so on the website too I think, that the guitar was personally made (and signed) by Ricardo. I doubt James was there during the guitar's construction, so I think it's safe to say he's going by what Ricardo or his people told him. I would not be shocked and only a little disappointed to find out that perhaps one or both of Ricardo's sons helped him build it. Heck, maybe even one or more of his employees. The bottom line is that I dearly love this guitar and only a small part of that love is my belief, and hope. that only Ricardo's hands put it together. Someone mentioned, and I for the most part agree, that really the only way to be sure of the luthier is to contract with one. But if you really want to be sure then you'll just have to go to the shop and watch him or her make it and who has time to do that? In any case, great job, Jeff. Maybe you should see if 60 Minutes is hiring.  Downing |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 12:35 PM
Good move Sr Acila...I too am of the opinion many folks were sucked into this whole scene and I too have stated in so many words that I would give the benefit of the doubt.. But you bring up a good point are you paying more for a signature and or a little foo foo and "french polish" (however applied) I have no doubt that Ricardo Sanchis Carpio may have help even building his 1 A Extra I have interperted Extra as meaning
Extra fine materials
Extra fine workmanship
Extra amount of hands on by Ricardo himself
or could mean extra help from los hijos/hermanos Lopez.... And I would not hesitate for to buy a Ricardo Sanchis Carpio signed or unsigned
R. Sanchis Carpio old style lablel signed or unsigned
R Sanchis Carpio new label signed or unsigned
Hermanos Lopez/ Hijos signed or unsigned
Very fine guitars (specifically the flamencos) Not all has been said .. but may not be important but 2 folks have completey stepped to the plate
Sr Billy Acila and the Stafford Guitar folks
check that the stafford site still has a bit of the BS bio As for Madinter hey if the guy is gonna screw with CITES ( and get busted) he deserves to have the exposure on the rest of the BS and get busted there... jjh
former car industry sleuth [This message has been edited by Jeff Hildreth (edited 08-24-2004).] |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 12:50 PM
SurpriseAs of 12:47 PM PAcific Standard time (So Or.) the Madinter website is DOWN ! Perhaps Sr Carrillo is having pleasantries with Senior Domingo Ortega Lazaro Solera Sanchez Senovilla de Madrid Curious to see what the site will look like when it comes back up However instead of going to the Madintergroup website go to the Madinter website
scroll down the left side menu to Webs of interest and see who is or is not on the links page, enlightning.... EL Jefe looking over shoulder for Spanish Guitar MAfia [This message has been edited by Jeff Hildreth (edited 08-18-2004).] |
nexialist2.0
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 01:45 PM
Jefe, Be careful before you open the door, etc.
You may want to hire a bodyguard for a while Dan
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Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 02:20 PM
As I did when I was in the car biz I had an "assassination rider" attached to my policy.Peter Gunn |
zavaletas
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 02:38 PM
James, I would like to bother you again to place an interjection on the forum to include with the other note I sent to you, In the two and a half years that I built the Domingo Ortega model guitars not more than 24 units left my shop, that is an average of something less than a guitar a month. I hope I have clarified this for any incredulous members of that forum. Again, I would have people remember what is understood by a factory is an operation with production of more than 90 guitars a day.Vicente Carrillo, luthier My translation. |
zavaletas
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 02:41 PM
One note on translation, if I used the word factory in translating first Carrillo's note it was a mistake., The word he used was taller-- or shop.[This message has been edited by zavaletas (edited 08-18-2004).] |
C. Vega
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 02:47 PM
Just to stir the pot a little more, since the name Miguel Angel Senovilla came up and sort of rang a bell with me I did a little digging. In my previous dealings with Madinter, the head guy's name was Miguel Angel Sanchez.Looking under Senovilla, came across a Paco de Lucia interview/promotional blurb where he states that the idea for the Paco guitars came from his amigos Juan Estrada and Miguel Angel Senovilla who are also partners in the project. No mention of Carrillo. And the pics in the interview show Paco playing a Conde. Looking a bit further, I came across a Miguel Angel Senovilla guitar on the Trilogy Guitars site. the label reads "Guitarra Miguel Angel Senovilla, Construida por el luthier Miguel Malo". It is signed "M.A. Senovilla" and "M.Malo." The address on the label is C. Mercurio 11, Madrid. The Madinter address is C. Mercurio 11, Colmenar Viejo (which is very near Madrid). Actually it's a small village surrounded by a few industrial parks, one of which houses the Madinter operation.
Miguel Malo is for real. He worked for Ramirez for many years and for much of that time was the head man in the shop. I had heard some time ago that after he left Ramirez that he had his shop on the Madinter premises but I don't know if this is still the case.
I also don't know if there is a real Miguel Angel Senovilla or if this is a pseudonym for Miguel Angel Sanchez. I tend to think the latter. [This message has been edited by C. Vega (edited 08-18-2004).] |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 03:23 PM
Thanks JamesSo did Vicente Carrillo himself make the Domingo Ortega back in 97 how big was the operation then???? Is there an answer to this ??
And in doing the search for Miguel Angel
Senovilla on the yahoo search engine
Why does SR Carrillos face and bio appear? I hope Sr Carrillo appreciates the confusion and our attempt at clearing this up.. which would only serve to help him. jjh
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zavaletas
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 04:48 PM
When I first met Vicente in 1997, he had one old man who had been an assistant to his father, and then his mother, working for him. During that visit, Miguel Angel from Madinter was visiting Vicente. I learned that Miguel Angel sold guitars as well, I assume, under both the Miguel Angel Senovilla and Domingo Ortega labels, and that he exchanged wood for guitars with luthiers. |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 05:48 PM
I hope that aside form all the above BS Carrillo profited from his relationship with
Miguel Angel....Trading wood for guitars seems a sensible thing to do for both parties.. jjh [This message has been edited by Jeff Hildreth (edited 08-18-2004).] |
nexialist2.0
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 07:15 PM
Jeez,Slimy stuff. More smoke and mirrors than I previously thought. I have confidence that James at Zavaleta's will look out for us. but we here on this forum are pretty knowledgeable. But what about the average smuck? You should not have to do a due-diligence like Jefe just did to find out who really made your Spanish made 1A, or the one you thought was made by Carillo (or another maestro's hands). That's dishonest.
I wonder how many different labels guitars made at R. Sanchis Carpio's "factory" bear. I*m sure his sons did a lot of the work on my 1AF Extra...I don't care, it's a great guitar and I know the story.
All of which is good reason to buy a custom made classical instead from any of the several great American luthier's. Dan
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Regg
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 08:23 PM
Speaking humbly as the "average schmuck", I have to admit my embarrassment that I actually believed Ortega was a real luthier. I once believed in Santa Claus too, but I should know better by now. If there is a possiblity that Carrillo had a hand in building my instrument, perhaps it is not such a great loss. How many of those 24 guitars did Carrillo sign himself, if it was he who did so? I've heard that some of those 1As are not signed at all. He mentioned 2 & 1/2 years building Ortegas--are there guitars with the Ortega label still in production?This thread has taught me a valuable lesson about "what's in a name" when it comes to Spanish guitars. I hope to redeem myself by owning a Reynolds DT next year--from an American luthier not shrouded in mystery. Randy isn't too hard to get a hold of, but if he isn't a real guy then I say the joke's on us and we'll just have to live with it. |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 10:16 PM
I have seen the labels and signatures ( on the web) on several of the Domingo Ortega Guitars.. the signature is the same and the time span was from 1997-2003Sr Carrillo says he made them starting in
1997 and made them for 3 years..so 1999-2000
So there are three years I have seen with the same signature after Sr Carrillo stopped making them. The conclusion is that they were signed by or at Madinter...and it is an odd signature for a Spanish made guitar, Most of the Spanish signatures are bold and made with great flourish.. the Domingo Ortega looks half printed and half cursive as if a 7 year old signed the label. This does not diminish the quality of the guitars.. particularly the early ones.. but leaves the question.. who is making them now.. perhaps Malo has a crew of builders
and since he is "in house" at Madinter this would make sense.. but again speculation. If someone is in Seattle ( missy P) they should go to Emerald Instruments and look at the 97 ( but not disclose its history or origin) and check the quality.. could be a bargain and maybe gotten for less than the asking price of $2295... a 1A Rio by Carrillo
pre larger crew...worth a look and a true piece of history... Regg what year is your Ortega and does it have the Printed signature?? Are you still in Germany?
JJH [This message has been edited by Jeff Hildreth (edited 08-18-2004).] |
scottw44
Member
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posted 08-18-2004 10:45 PM
Keep in mind that all the smoke and mirrors doesn't make your guitar a bad guitar.You should like it as much today as you did yesterday. What has been called into question is the origin, but the tone and playability remain unchanged. Enjoy your guitar. |
