posted 08-17-2004 10:58 PM            

As there are no elves at Taylor,
there are no elves at many of the Spanish
guitar producers..

Makes the Lowly Picado by Lucida a fabulous
non misrepresented guitar, and I respect the confidentiality of Prudencia Saez.. but that was sort of fun to figure out.. there was no misrepresentation or bio or photos of the "luthier" or signed label.. it was a bargain as well because it went from maker to importer to dealer to buyer

What I like better is buying direct or having an individual such as James Greenberg as the one middle man.. and for that I am willing to pay.. I am not willing to pay several markups and finance the advertising and hype....

So when I go to Carrillos will I meet:
Tomas Lazaro, Francisco Solera and the infamous Sr Domingo Ortega ?

We know Carrillo is making some of the Paco guitars but have you seen how many models they offer? Then add to that all the above brands and their models
And 4-5 guys make all this..
there is still a portion of the puzzle missing.. and note that MADINTER offers
classical and flamenco guitar kits.. are these Hijos de Lazaro, Ortega, Solera et al

And this is not a new enterprise as evidenced by the Domingo Ortega guitar offered by Emerald in Seattle dated 97.

And the "signed" labels are the same 97-03
I suppose secretaries stay that long in one job...

So are we being bad guys by exposing OZ and
demonstrating that the emperor has no clothes.. maybe ...but I dont like being conned

This could have stopped long ago if one of the folks I e mailed or called ,or emailed this group, was a bit more forthright
I understand protecting sources .. I understand made up names ,the rest I do not understand

jjh

guitar detective

posted 08-17-2004 10:59 PM               

I feel preety certain that my new Lucio Nunez is being built by the 2 hands of Maestro Nunez in San Antonio, TX

Dan

posted 08-18-2004 12:13 AM               

After receiving a phone call today from a news group member I followed up on the discussion topic. I have become very interested and curious about the authenticity of the Domingo Ortega name, especially since I thought to have met him while on my trip to Spain.

I will make a priority to solve the questions that have been presented and will post my findings and update my web site accordingly if necessary.

Best Regards, Billy Arcila
www.lacg.net

posted 08-18-2004 03:34 AM               

Regg, it sounds like you love your guitar, so I wouldn't worry too much about whether there is or isn't a DO.

I think all that the others are trying to do is establish that there is a phony bio out there, and question why guitar co's feel they need to market their guitars in this fashion.

If you have a good guitar, for a good price, that you, your luthier, and instructor all feel strongly about, then ENJOY.

Everything else is just dribble, and based on your purchase price, you paid for just the guitar and not the hype.

But like the others, I dream of a day when we can see honest guitar marketing...I have long given up on an honest political race

posted 08-18-2004 07:04 AM            

As I kept searching the "bull S---" got deeper.

When I called LACG I was sincere and curious and thought that there was a serious possibility there was a Domingo Ortega and as I have found out there are grades to the Ortegas.. I thought those at LACG may be the top of the line at low prices.. the parallel to the Bernabe/ Lopez situation..
I was looking for a Flamenco or a classic with low action and reduced sustain.
As LACG seemed to be the ONLY person who actually met Ortega, they were the likely source to contact. Though the Madrid thing threw me off...the story otherwise colaborated with the BS from the link posted by Vega... which is apparently impossible and ficticious.. Billy , I think you have been duped. But tell us ( and of course you don't have to) who sold you the guitars.
Madinter, Carrillo a broker...Domingo him self.. who gat the bank transfer?
Sorry you got caught up in this.. no harm was intended..
It is my firm belief after reading nonsense on the web that is identical to nonsense from other dealers that would not have personal contact.. the BS came form the same source ie dealers are being lied to and they perpetuate the myths...

I was in the car biz for 25 years.. I know the smoke and mirrors form that nest of lercenists... and now I make traditional furniture and folk art.. the least informed and most duped are the dealers.. and when I tell them that their 200 year old Irish antique table was fresh form Indonesia yesterday.. it's kill the messenger.

Look at the thread Joke of the day..This outfit is claiming to be the exclusive dealer for lines.. as do several others.. many say they are the US Distributor for X brand .. so how many distributors are there
I really dont care .. but lets not make up ficticious Characters replete with travel logs and bios and photos....

Again I could be wrong

and of course along the way I lost interest in Domingo Ortega and any bargain guitar
and went at the facts with a vengence.

Thanks Billy for stepping in...I hope we all find that there is some "truth" to all this

But my gut feeling is that there are more
tallers making the MAdinter line of Solera,
(some of which oddly have the full 19th fret used by CArrillo and few others), Ortega,
Lazaro, Paco De Lucia ( he also has a few cheaper models) Carrillo etc

Again, I understand protecting your sources,
and I fully understand nom de luthier..I dont buy the photo journalism and the bloated phony bios...and the resultant mystique and hence desirability and elevted prices for guitars that are likely production units... not that they are bad.. had a few myself...

But I do know what I would not buy and what I will buy... and I have raised my sights and my and nmy respect for some makers and dealers.. and of course the opposite and then lastly have a bit of pity for the dealers who have been conned..

But there is one bit of good news
I just saved some money by changing my insurance to Geico

The good news is that everyone I have talked to that has sold played or owned and Ortega
liked it...but they have a certain bias as they paid for it...or profited..

Rhetorical question
In the 80's when I worked for Diamler Benz
Mercedes Benz of North America as a Field Service manager in the western states...
our entry level car was $25000
Today under the control of Chrysler.. an entry level Mercedes Benz is $25000
is there any remote possibilty the car of 2004 is or could be the same quality as the 84 .... no need to answer.. the dealers were duped first and there are a couple more levels of profitabilty so you figure it out
Smoke and mirrors folks

This is added 45 minutes later.. I called Stafford Guitar in England.. the authors of the bio.. I spoke with a lovely lady there
to let her know waht was going on.. We reviewed the issue of the Domingo Bio and he and Vicente apprencting with Vicente Sr
being a chronological impossibiliyt
She realizes this and will correct it..
Further,, she says they original got Carrillio thru Madinter.. and at a later date got them from Carrillo
Further that they visted Carrillo and there were several people working there.. perhaps 4 doing necks and head stocks and a few women doing the fret work..(seniorita Ortega I presume or was it Seniorita Solera or Lazaro)

I am giving the folks at Stafford a link to this discussion.. she said they may reply

Jeff

posted 08-18-2004 07:52 AM            

It was wrong of me to state earlier that DO is a real person, since I honestly don't know for sure. I was simply trying to express my opinion about a guitar that happens to have the DO name on it. My impression is that the luthier (who ever he is) had a genuine desire to build a quality instrument with his own hands--not just some factory knockoff to fulfill a quota or something. The dealer in Germany who I dealt with from www.guitarras-de-madrid.de also seemed like a very honest gentleman. He was falling upon hard times and could have seriously jacked up the price of my guitar, but he didn't even charge me for shipping. I had great communication with him, and he described the sonority of this guitar perfectly. He also told me that he met a man who introduced himself as DO when he was dealing with Madinter, much like Billy said. Maybe the next guy who meets DO should ask for a birth cirtificate or something. All we got so far is a bad picture, and I admit that this is strange.

posted 08-18-2004 08:19 AM            

Ramirez shop does not have a RAmirez building guitars (could be now) but there is a skilled crew.... look at your guitar that way

I now have discovered that the first known Domingo Ortega was 1997 and this coincides with a supposed deal of a trade of wood from Madinter to a maker for guitars

I believe I know who that maker is..
and Regg if yours is one of those it is a good guitar

The 1A Brazilian in Seattle at $2295
certainly is one of those... and someone should try to get this below $2k and snatch it.. it is Brazilian and form a good maker so is a deal

Does it matter that a Paulino Bernabe Model 20 is lablelled Antonio Lopez Maestro
not in the least ,, and you can spend $2500-3500 for the Maestro or $3500-5300 for the same guitar with a PB model 20 label

I am class concious to a certain degree but not for a couple grand....

Jeff

posted 08-18-2004 09:25 AM               

Esteemed forum:   Domingo Ortega is a guitar that was made during something over two years in the factory of Vicente Carrillo by order of Madinter Trade in Viejo Colmenar near Madrid, I believe that this should clarify any remaining doubts in this matter.

The line of guitars that became for Domingo Ortega were those guitars of 2ª quality that they marketed as 1ª, this is the reason that Vicente now has new line of 2ª with the same quality of construction and sound as those that could be the guitars of 1ª quality,

At the present time, Vicente Carrillo and Madinter Trade or Goup have neither a commercial nor personal relation, and so the line of Domingo Ortega is not constructed in Casasimarro, if by certain retailers are continuing to selI them, I do not know the origin of those guitars and guarantee that from end of last year any guitar with that name has not been made by me. I would also like to say that I do not have any relation with the Tomás Lazaro or Francisco Solera guitars.  

As I have said Domingo Ortega was one some time one "trade names" that this company had made in the shop of Vicente Carrillo, but I was not involved in their marketing. All this history was invented by those sold them, making their clients believe that Domingo Ortega made guitars in my shop. The photographs that are seen on Internet of the supposed Domingo Ortega are of one of my most esteemed employees in my shop.

I would like to clarify that, Vicente Carrillo did not have nor does have anything to do with the marketing of those guitars, his only involvement was limited to filling an order that was given him, and this instrument was sold directly from Madrid. This is the reason why the labels say "Madrid" and not Casasimarro, if this was used to deceive customers in some way by confusing facts, it did not have anything to do with the reality.

I have been able to observe that there is a direct link from the Madinter Group page to Vicente Carrillo and to De Lucia Gestion among others, these links have been placed there without the authorization of these companies, for which reason we think that they will soon disappear from this page.

The reason for which Vicente Carrillo attends conventions of music at international level, such as  MUSIK  MESSE in Frankfurt or NAMM in the Angels is only to be able present his guitars directly to the maximum clients possible, so they can directly know Vicente Carrillo guitars and power to exchange their impressions of them directly with him,

In fact, I am planning to attend next NAMM and MESSE MUSIK   shows in 2005.

Any doubt that can arise with these commentaries, I would be very happy to answer on this forum.

posted 08-18-2004 10:04 AM               

This thread dovetails nicely with my previous
comments about student "Ramirez" guitars,
and my more recent thread about North American luthiers. With the latter, you can
be pretty certain that the name on the label
built the guitar, and that you're not paying
several different parties as the guitar
moves along the marketing chain.

Having said that, Bob Page was nice enough
to translate my email from Jean-Baptiste
Castelluccia regarding the manufacture of
Giambattista guitars: "The Giambattistas
are partly made in France, that is I make the
soundboards and in Italy they make the rest
and assemble and finish the guitars.Then they
are strung and adjusted in Paris by me."
My french is good enough, but I asked Bob to
translate, because his french is perfect .

posted 08-18-2004 10:31 AM            

And as I clearly said before.. there is more to this story there are more shops producing Ortega and, Solera and Lazaro guitars....which may or may not be of Carrillo origin..

Another note .. in the guitar world as we know it... with a few exceptions .. a "signed " 1a guitar was made by the signator ie the person who signed it
A. Who signed the Domingo Ortega guitars the signature was the same from 97 until present.. I'll be gracious and assume it was Madinter group....
B. Did you make all and I mean all of the guitars you have signed... by signing them the implication is that you did build them alone

As I want a guitar made entirely by the person who signed the guitar.. until proven otherwise.. I would not buy one of your signed guitars...

Many luthiers do not sign the 2a or other guitars from their shop ie Maldonado
Carpio, Bernabe etc ... that is an open and honest way to do business..they dont sign that which you did not make or made to a lesser standard than a 1A

Ergo 1A means nothing.. a signature means nothing

So now we have come in a short time from Ortega to Carrillo and from a small one man shop with an assistant to a 4 person shop to a shop with many people including women doing the fretting to Carrrillo's own words (translated) "a factory"
And from Ortega as the disciple of Vicente Sr, and a master luthier who shares the shop of Vicente, to a ficticious character

I (we) are confused

And did Billy Acila of LACG make up the story of meeting Ortega and provide the
"verifying " photos or did you introduce this person as Sr Ortega
Is there a Sr. Ortega in your organization?

What other brands are produced by the CArrillo shop/factory besides Carrillo and Paco de Lucia..
Incidentally I NEVER buy endorsed guitars,, more smoke and mirrors

Did you personally make the original 1997 Domingo Ortegas or did your 1 assistant help or the 4, or the crew with women fretters, or your "factory"

I would consider buying the used guitar as a 1A rio made by you..and labelled Ortega that would be a very good deal... or is it as I suspect no different than the current 1A Carrillo which may or may not have been made by you personally.. I dont care if it says Ortega or Carrillo .. was this guitar made Vicente Carrillo alone ??

If you think I am overly tenacious about this or as we say in America "flogging a dead horse" , Carrillo's own words brought us to question the operation
Also considering others wrote ficticious statements . I will take at face value your explanation of this...

The buyer is entitled to know who made the product and if the value is there and if the signed label was signed by a "real living person" and the maker of the guitar or just a handful of labels signed at one time and inserted into the guitars (as do some)without regard for the truth of the unit made by a factory a small staff or by one person. The information is not credible or reliable.

This is on no way denegrate an individual or a product just a search for the facts.

Americans simply will not accept vaca caca.

With all due respect to Sr Vicente Carrillo and his staff...no es claro....
but if there is a true "bad guy" here it looks like the Madinter Group

Billy ,you got a lot of 'splaining to do : )

Thanks James for contacting Sr. Carrillo

Jeff

So is it time to call Senior Miguel Angel Senovilla (Sanchez) at Madinter and ask to speak to luthier Domingo Ortega...
maybe I can trade some port orford cedar and redwood for some guitarras with the EL Jefe
label but I would specify I want the labels signed by lady fretters.

posted 08-18-2004 11:30 AM            

This is exactly why I am moving to US builders. I own a Tezanos Perez negra that have been purported to be built by Senior’s Tezanos and Perez only. I recently saw a picture of the Tezanos Perez workshop. In the foreground were the respective said luthiers, but in the background you could see several other workers, which I would assume were helpers. Does that degrade the tone and construction? Not at all, but it does raise concerns.

I also own a flamenco blanca from Portland Oregon builders John Shelton and his wife Susan Ferreta. I talked to John just yesterday and have been to his shop many times. I can guarantee you no one other than John and Susan touched my guitar.

Aaron Green is currently finishing a new flamenco for me as well. I can rest assured that his are the only hands involved.

posted 08-18-2004 11:51 AM               

Sincerely, Billy Arcila
www.lacg.net