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Author
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Topic: Domingo Ortega
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C. Vega
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 06:26 PM
   
It seems more than a little interesting/odd to me that the dealers who handle the Ortega guitars just happen to also sell guitars labeled Tomas Lazaro and Francisco Solera. In their respective price ranges they are obviously fictitiously labeled factory instruments but just out of curiosity, I looked up these names as well.
Nada.Same Spanish jobber, possibly the same factory methinks. [This message has been edited by C. Vega (edited 08-17-2004).] |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 08:09 PM
Bingo Sr Vega you get the prizeOn a Spanish Guitar web site..with several "brands" listed.......
when you click on Domingo Ortega..
what comes up.. surprise!!!!!
Tomas Lazaro And yes virtually every euro and Brit dealer of DO and a couple in the US also sell
Lazaro and Solera Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck ...
It's a Domingo Ortega Of course this could all be circumstantial and coincidental and absolute BS I will stand corrected if someone can produce Mr Ortega and a bonafide adress Off to check the signatures on the Lazaro and
Solera guitars El Jefe |
C. Vega
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 08:22 PM
Quack, quack.In all fairness, there's certainly the possibility that there is a guitar maker somewhere in Spain named Domingo Ortega and he may well work for Carrillo or someone else but given the prices quoted and the number of dealers selling them, it's highly unlikely that the guitars bearing this name are the work of an individual luthier. [This message has been edited by C. Vega (edited 08-17-2004).] |
RAM
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 08:36 PM
I understand that there are many factory built guitars, also from the major brands like Ramirez etc, and that many of these may well be or are known to be good instruments. However, I am bothered if a guitar is named after some individual (first and last name) and that individual doesn't exist. In this sense, the Antonio Loriente line at GSI is also bizarre. Sure, you can find out from them there is no such person, but the label is actually signed with that name in nicely readable school handwriting. Talk about misleading the buyer...
Rene |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 08:39 PM
http://www.trilogyguitars.com/guitars/solera_ib_2f_fla/images/solera_ib_2f_label.htm
Let's see,, hmmm Madrid no street adress
what a coincidence
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kuan
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 08:48 PM
Coming to a theater near you...Charles Vega, guitar detective. |
FrankB2
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 08:57 PM
I'll save ya'll a lot of effort  . Just goHere
It's not Solera that Castelluccia markets,
but Francisco Cortes and Antonio Amarillo.Frank
P.S. Brush up on you r French....LOL
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Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 09:09 PM
Here is the answer to the Francisco Solera
question.. as suspected
http://www.islamicaweb.com/archive/read/t-12752.html Scroll down just beyond halfway to a post by Johnny Paani
or you can read the quote: "The label is "Francisco Solera". It's actually made by a co-op of Spanish builders that are associated with a wood supply company in Spain ( called Madinter)" I suspect that the guitars are made by several makers to specifications laid out by Madinter and labeled and distributed by them It is not too much of a stretch since the dealers that have these also have the Lozaro
and Ortega guitars .. also labeled "Madrid" Back in a few... JJH |
DB in PDX
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 09:12 PM
Jeff: Thanks for starting this really interesting thread. Good work by both you and CV. quote:
Originally posted by RAM:
However, I am bothered if a guitar is named after some individual (first and last name) and that individual doesn't exist. ***Talk about misleading the buyer...
Rene
I agree. But the LACG site is even worse than misleading if Domingo doesn't exist where it is written: "I also met Domingo Ortega, who works at the same shop. Together we selected the spruce tops that will be on our next two guitars." To be fair, the "we" above may be referencing the author, Billy Arcila, and Vincente Carrillo rather than Domingo, but the author leaves no doubt that he's met Domingo in the flesh. Or at least that he believes he has. Or maybe that someone wanted him to believe he has. Or maybe--oh, forget it. But if there's no Domingo, that's about as fraudulent as it gets. Somehow it just doesn't seem worth the effort, though. Hasn't it been said that these are good guitars at relatively decent prices? Why not just call it an Alhambra or Manuel Rodriguez and be done with it. [This message has been edited by DB in PDX (edited 08-17-2004).] |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 09:24 PM
BUSTED !!!! http://www.madintergroup.com/
It's ok to make up a label....
Example there has not been a Gibson Asscoiated with Gibson since 1908
or some of the other made up Spanish Guitar names but when you make up a guy to cover the facts ...busted.. now of course this could all be just coincidence..... Eliminate the impossible, whatever left, however improbable, must be the truth El Jefe
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C. Vega
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 09:29 PM
It's my understanding that Madinter, along with another Spanish wood dealer and a couple of others in Germany recently got popped for selling illegal/uncertified Brazilian rosewood by the CITIES watchdogs.
Until fairly recently, Madinter's site listed various sets they had for sale. This went suddenly to "out of stock" and now the page will not load. www.madinter.com
Myself and another luthier visited Madinter's warehouse/sawmill/furniture factory/distribution center in Colmenar Viejo several years ago. It was apparently a somewhat smaller operation back then. We bought some wood and had lunch with the boss. To say it was "interesting" would be a big understatement.[This message has been edited by C. Vega (edited 08-17-2004).] |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 09:47 PM
Of particular interest is the last item on the right columnSenorita "ORTEGA" Solera It's all there folks links that go to other
guitar marketing subdivisions of Madinter including Lazaro So CArrillo was sort of right he isnt going to and outside supplier for the guitars he is the outside supplier and possibly along with others..
So the hub of the Carrillo, Paca De Lucia Gestion, Ortega, Solera, Lozaro and others is Madinter.... So there are folks that got hoodwinked and or flat misrepresented the truth I am back to read more...of the smoke and mirrors Incidentally one of the dealers in England also sold guitars making wood and supplies.. but they are relocating to Spain and the plot thickens Dear Ms Ortega Solera de Madrid..
It has recently come to my attention el Jefe |
Regg
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 10:00 PM
Well, I do remember the Madintergroup from somewhere, but I'm honestly not sure what this proves. I can understand a corporate buyout of a giant name like Fender or Gibson for the sake of increasing your profit margin, but I don't understand the concept of making up a virtually unknown name to sell...almost nothing significant? How many of you have ever heard of this name (as a luthier) before this thread appeared?What exactly is the accusation here: that this builder (or group of builders or corporate entity or whatever) is deceiving customers he doesn't even have yet? Perhaps the madintergroup is giving DO a steady job, and he's not in the position to tell them how much to sell his guitars for. I'm not knocking what has been said, I'm just trying to settle who we are accusing what of doing. If this is what is going on then I can't even begin to understand the Spanish guitar business. |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 10:36 PM
What's the point? The Domingo Ortega guitars
may be fine guitars.. but likely there is no Domingo Ortega.. why not be honest
There is no Tomas Lazaro or Francisco Solera
So why the phony bios..just say they are made by a group of fine luthiers headed by a master and market by wood hustlers..
And Carrillo was at best evasive...
and of course this expalins how and why he was at Musik Messe in Frankfurt and NAAM in AmericaGo to the Madintergroup website
clik on either the LGS Espana or the LGS Athenas
Then at the top right is a box labelled
"buscar producto"..
type in Domingo Ortega, Solera, Lazaro, Carrillo
you get the picture SO the guy from LACG with his cute travel log was either a liar or was lied to The guy from england (whose site is down)
with the BS bio of Domingo Ortega's apprenticeship was either a liar or lied to
and then of course there are the fotos of Domingo Ortega at Carrillos... there very well may be a Domingo Ortega but not THE
Domingo Ortega of the labelled fame
of course obviated by the MADRID location on the labels But as always I may be wrong and will gladly accept correction with complete and total verification by presentation of the individuals replete with bios and DNA going back 6 generations
and I want to see videos of the purps signing the labels Will the real Domingo Ortega please sign in
Welcome SR Ortega can you tell us what you do for a living um huh yeah uh huh
ok panel he is involved in manufacturing a
(name) er product Do I care.. no not really but I dont like BS and that is essentially why I wont buy Martins or TAylors either Will I buy any of the above named brands.. probably not This makes Ricardo Sanchis Carpio look like a saint...at least he is real and does not hide the facts including the Hermanos Lopez and or Hijos de Carpio or the production side of the business
that is Condes job Hats off to sellers who are forthright with what information they have and believe to be the truth.. Enough of this back to scientology... el jefe del norte sin cultura follow the money |
Anthony Dalton
Member
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posted 08-17-2004 10:38 PM
I think what Jeff and CV are try to get across is that the ridiculous romantic notion that many guitar buyers have of Spanish made guitars all coming from little Gepetto workshops is hardly the case and that in reality, 99.9% percent of them are the products of large workshops and factories no matter what kind of name they hang on them. And many dealers and distrbutors milk this misconception for all it's worth. Guitars are big business in Spain.
There are certainly many excellent individual makers and small workshops there that produce superb instruments but you aren't going to find them distributed by a worldwide network of dealers and distributors. And you're not going to find one for two grand or less.
If a Spanish made guitar is selling stateside for $2000 and has gone from the maker to distributor to dealer to you and everyone along the way is making a buck, or euro, by marking it up, and add on shipping costs, duty, broker's fees, etc. what do you think that guitar really costs from the source? $1000?. $600?. Less? Probably. These people aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, they in it to make a buck. Oh yeah, and don't forget the very unfavorable monetary exchange rate.
An individual maker or "small workshop" building guitars by "traditional methods"(as the hype so often says) and selling them at these prices would be out of business in a week.
This is obviously mass produced merchandise and like many other things that are mass produced, cars, furniture, clothing, appliances, etc. the quality is often just fine. Just don't be led into thinking that these instruments are anything more than that.
Consumers want to see a name. Logos sell. It doesn't matter if it's a guitar from a Spanish factory or a dress with a NY 'designer' name on it that was made in a sweatshop in Thailand. And there are many consumers who are willing to pay extra to have a 'name' emblazoned on their hat, shirt, butt, car ski rack or whatever. They freely pay extra to do someone's advertising for them.
Do the math.[This message has been edited by Anthony Dalton (edited 08-17-2004).] |
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