posted 01-17-2003 03:34 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by TDR:

Being Egyptian, you probably have a different take on the war on terrorism, and the growing rift between the US and Islam, and our perception of the 'Arab street' and the middle east in general. It would be interesting to hear about it.

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posted 01-18-2003 06:31 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by mediocre_player:
TDR, I've been trying for 30 minutes to say something comprehensible but couldnt. Perhaps you can ask me more specific questions and I can answer these.

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Hi M_P,

Thanks for responding. I'll ask you a couple of questions. If they get too personal or you aren't comfortable answering, no problem. I'm curious because I know we are basically ignorant in this country of the things that go into making up the minds of folks in other places.

Are you Egyptian born and living in America? Does that mean you were raised in the Muslim culture and religion? Have you been here long? By that I mean do you suppose you think more like an Egyptian or an American?

OK. So we're told Islam is a religion of peace, and that the radicals have "hijacked" it and distorted its message to justify their violence. Is that true? Do most Muslims identify with the radicals, or would they rather reject them?

We have a notion of separating church and state. The government should not meddle in religion and the church should not try and run government. It seems the movement towards Islamist governments would have the mullahs telling people what to think and telling the government what to do. Why do you suppose people go along with that?

Why do you suppose there is so much anger driving the radicals to suicide and acts of murder and terror? Is it, as we hear, because the US supports governments that are unpopular? Is it lack of economic opportunities? Is it envy that the west is getting richer while they are not?

It seems Islamic countries are very tradition minded. Does that traditional way keep them from changing with the times? Do they see the modern world passing them by? Do they feel threatened or insulted when they see that we are using alcohol and eating pork, or that our women don't obey their rules?

If the US sends soldiers in to occupy Iraq and put in a differnet government to replace Saddam Hussein, what would people in Egypt and all the other countries surrounding Iraq think? Would they be glad to see Saddam go? Or would they be furious to see the American forces there? Would even more people become radicalized, do you think?

Osama bin Laden and Saddam both wanted to see a war between Islam and America. How many people think that is a good idea and why? Will we be closer to that if we invade Iraq?

I'll stop asking questions now. I'm sure just these questions reveal some American attitude and misperceptions. So it is, we're all products of our culture.

posted 01-18-2003 09:20 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by TDR:
Hi M_P,

Thanks for responding. I'll ask you a couple of questions. If they get too personal or you aren't comfortable answering, no problem.

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I'll try my best

Are you Egyptian born and living in America?
Yes, I'm Egyptain born and raised. I used to live in America until America made it clear that I was not welcomed anymore. At which point I moved to Canada, which is a shame because the US is where I wanted to be academically.

Does that mean you were raised in the Muslim culture and religion? Have you been here long? By that I mean do you suppose you think more like an Egyptian or an American?

Yeah, I'm Muslim by birth. But Egypt has both Muslims and Christians, so its not a strict 'Islamic' place like Saudia Arabia for instance. You have to realize that in a way, Egypt has been very american-ized since the early 80's: You'll find a McDonalds/KFC/Applebees,etc. at every corner and the theatres only show American movies at the same time they're shown in the states, 'Who wants to be a Millionaire?' is a huge TV success, etc.
My folks sent me to an all American school in Cairo, that made my access to the American culture even easier with breaking the language barrier. I used to visit the states as a kid with my parents every summer. I then got my undergrad degree in Egypt and after some time I moved to the US for my grad studies in 2000, and I left last May. I'm 26 now, and would like to think that I'm familiar with both how Americans and Egyptians think.

OK. So we're told Islam is a religion of peace, and that the radicals have "hijacked" it and distorted its message to justify their violence. Is that true?

Before answering this question. I want to say that I'm not a practicing muslim. I'm not a big fan of religion, I just follow the teachings of Lennon/McCartney
Having said that, and from my knowledge of Islam, its just like any other religion, it has its good parts, its bad parts, and parts that just dont make any sense. And again just like any religion, its open to how you want it interpreted, there are definitely the parts that you can use to regard any group of people you wish as enemies. Personally, I couldnt identify very much with it and have decided that its not for me. From brief readings of the bible or hearing about stuff from Christian friends, I think I feel the same way about Christianity.
So on one hand, you'll find the normal everyday muslims who go about their own business and realize that religion is a personal thing between an individual and their god, just normal, peaceful folks. There's also another group that wants to take it to a higher level, a political level..like the terrorists for example, who took it upon themselves to right what they see as wrong anywhere.

Do most Muslims identify with the radicals, or would they rather reject them?

I would speak for Egypt here, since I dont know about other places. I remember when I was like 16, we were hit by Muslim terrorist attacks for like a year, about 4 bombings or so. They were all from within, Egyptians killing Egyptians. These were people that wanted Egypt to be an Islamic government, and saw it as a great offence that rulings of the Quran are not used in the courts or whatever (There's a seperation between church and state.) So, people have become really wary of terrorists, since they have been hit by them in the first place. Therefore I dont think the normal Egyptian guy would endorse a terrorist attack. But the definiton of terrorism can be very different. What Israel is doing in Palestine is regarded in Egypt as terrorism, what the Palestinans are doing is regarded as defence, exactly the opposite of what you'd get in Israel or the US for instance. My personal opinion is that both sides are killing kids, women, and innocent people in general, and repeating it ad infinitum, which means that something is seriously wrong. When a Palestinian blows up himself and kills innocent bystanders, he thinks he had killed the occupants of his land. When the Israelis shoot a kid for the 100th time, its an unintentional mistake. Its just stupid and sad.

Why do you suppose there is so much anger driving the radicals to suicide and acts of murder and terror? Is it, as we hear, because the US supports governments that are unpopular? Is it lack of economic opportunities? Is it envy that the west is getting richer while they are not?

TDR, your questions are really interesting. Here's what I think. The number ONE reason the middle east has a problem with the states is the israeli/palastinian conflict. The people (Egypt and everywhere) perceive the US position as very biased towards Israel. And just as you get coverage of the suicide bombs in israel in the us, you get coverage of the israelis trashing palestinians in Egypt. Nobody wants to see why either side is doing what they're doing, they just see that the other side is plain wrong. This is problem number one. Problem number two is the economics of it..the people are poor, most of them are going nowhere with their lives, they dont have money and cant start a family for instance. They need to make their lives meaningful but cant. Enter Osamma or somebody like him. He very easily convinces them of his viewpoints (remember, they are way undereducated and hopeless for anything to cling on to) and offers them to make something of themselves by dying to serve a purpose or whatever BS like that. Like for instance, somebody tried to kill this guy, Naguib Mahfouz, who is a Nobel prize-winning Egyptian author because they thought he says anti-islam things in his novels. The guy who attacked him was illiterate, he didnt know how to read! You get the idea. Also, have to record the fact that the economic problem is mostly from within, the governments are corrupt.

The thing about the west being richer, that I dont know about. Though I've never met anybody who had told me he hated the US b/c they're rich or something. Although I have to say this too: Part of my family is Austrian, and these guys dislike the US a lot, I dont know why. There couldnt be any conceivable reason. They're christians, they live in a beautiful country, etc. When I asked, I was told it's because of the US arrogance and ignorance. I dont know what that means but I thought I'd tell you about it. This seems to be a strong feeling in Europe generally. Maybe you can explain this with the envy theory, but I dont think its that simple.

It seems Islamic countries are very tradition minded. Does that traditional way keep them from changing with the times?

Oh my god YES!!!! This is actually why I cant live there. I wouldnt associate it with islam but with the third world in general. The people are really traditional, and large scale changes seem to take forever. In Egypt for instance, you have this guy who has been president for like what? 20 years? And people would not object to that. Most people would be busy trying to understand what the Quran says instead of you know, learning something that's actually useful..science or whatever. Can you believe that in the year 2003, a major topic of discussion is still whether or not a woman should wear a veil? In Egypt, if you're a woman, you're free to do that if you like, or not do it. The REALLY weird thing is that more college girls seem to choose to do it these days! Whereas my mom used to dress in mini-skirts and all in the 60's, my sister is much more conservative in her dressing now, something that I do find very disturbing. People have a tendency to believe anybody who speaks to them through a religious angle, and they kind of have the attitude that if they do something that would normally be annoying to them, like covering their head for instance, they would be closer to god. But, enough about that, what I want to say is, people concern themselves too much with such trivial stuff that they call religion, that practically keeps them from advancing with the times. The observation is that people will very likely follow something that claims its religious, much more so than people in the US would do for example, and this seems to be getting stronger, not weaker

Do they feel threatened or insulted when they see that we are using alcohol and eating pork, or that our women don't obey their rules?

Well, as I said..in Egypt it's a muslim/christian thing, so you're free to drink or eat pork if you want. However, I think that the common misconception that somebody would have of the US is that its a place where people only think about sex and materialistic things and dont have any spirituality and will be punished by god and all that BS. Anybody who has a chance to visit the US comes back with a totally different viewpoint and spreads it across his group of friends. I think this is what we need to do more. There is no doubt that the US is a great country, at least in the sense of how its organized. If more people in Egypt realize that and see it for themselves, they may want to somehow start heading in the same direction while at the same time maintaining their own traditions. I for one think that it would be nice if I can go back after my PhD and start teaching stuff to the new gen of kids. Could be naive, but its the only way out to bridge the huge gap in like a couple of generations' time.

If the US sends soldiers in to occupy Iraq and put in a differnet government to replace Saddam Hussein, what would people in Egypt think?

They would be pissed beyond belief. Let me repeat this last part; They would be pissed beyond belief. I was 14 during the first war, and I cant remember anyone who was deeply objecting to it, because there was a very clear reason for why its happening. The guy occupied a country, the country has to be liberated, so nobody would say no to that, except perhaps the usual anti-anything US that exists everywhere. But this time its not the same. Its not well-justified at all, and my personal opinion is that it will breed so much animosity that will definitely increase the would-be terrorists out there. I'm sure everybody on the Egyptian street would really resent the US b/c of the Iraq thing, to which you can say who cares..but I dont think that's in the long-term best interest of anybody. I'm ashamed to say that one guy of these terrorist jerks was Egyptian. The Iraq thing can produce more of this guy.

Would they be glad to see Saddam go? Or would they be furious to see the American forces there? Would even more people become radicalized, do you think?

Nobody actually cares whether Saddam stays or goes, excepy maybe in Iraq. But they would be furious to see the US there and will regard it as an unlawful occupation. More people will be radicalized? You bet! These are countries that cant fight back or do anything to let their anger out. Again, the Ossamas comes in and give them a chance to let their anger out. What do you think will happen?

Osama bin Laden and Saddam both wanted to see a war between Islam and America. How many people think that is a good idea and why? Will we be closer to that if we invade Iraq?

I dont think anybody in their right mind would want to see such a war. Plus, as I said...most muslim nations are weak and divided amongst themselves, so they cant actually fight anybody anyway. What will happen is that they will just harbor more animosity towards the US, because they'll think the US is anti-Islam (just like the US think the others are anti-US, its all one big joke) and the pool of applicants to Ossama's camp will drastically increase.

I'll stop asking questions now. I'm sure just these questions reveal some American attitude and misperceptions. So it is, we're all products of our culture.

Actually, I'm quite happy that there's somebody who's even bothered to see the whole picture. Some people are very one-sided. I try to be as objective as I can, realizing that of course at times I may not be able to do so. Just by being here and talking about guitars its very easy to see that we're all the same in the end and share much more than we actually think. Perhaps the solution would be for the US to drop 200,000 Martins over Iraq or something, and provide them with a cable connection

posted 01-20-2003 10:37 AM               

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Originally posted by DharmaBum:
TDR and MP: Thanks to you both. What was posted above was far more valauable than a month of "news" coverage in our media.

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Yeh, everything printed in the world's thousands of newspapers and magazines, and seen on TV and radio, carries relatively little value. In fact, it is all so worthless that we need to put quotation marks around the word "news" because everything produced by that sector is incompetent and biased and could not possibly qualify as news.

And all lawyers are corrupt liars and all doctors are money-grubbing butchers.

posted 01-20-2003 10:55 AM               

Isn't it a good thing, to consider how the rest of the world sees what's going on?

Try reading Al Ahram, the weekly from Cairo on the web: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/

Here are some of the headers today:

Impending disaster: President Mubarak has warned that an American war against Iraq would serve no purpose but pour fuel over a fire. Meanwhile, inter-Arab efforts continue to prevent such a disaster, reports Nevine Khalil

Blood for votes
Additional Palestinian lives are sacrificed to the Israeli election campaign, writes Khaled Amayreh from occupied Jerusalem

Jockeying for position
Iraqi opposition figures have their eyes on the prize as they put their best foot forward in the contest for the US administration's favour. Dina Ezzat reports

Brotherhood barred at the poll
The Wafd Party routed the banned Muslim Brotherhood in last week's Damanhour by-election. But did they?

A family affair
Divorce, alimony, custody disputes and violence within the family are among the plethora of cases to be dealt with by a new court, which will include sitting women justice. Reem Leila investigates

One year in limbo
A year after Al-Qa'eda suspects were whisked off to a US naval facility at Guantanamo Bay, the world seems to have forgotten about their continued detention without charge, writes Anayat Durrani

posted 01-20-2003 01:13 PM               

Those were some really good and thoughtful answers you gave. Can we continue our conversation a little bit? You said:

I used to live in America until America made it clear that I was not welcomed anymore.

Just wondering, does ‘not welcome anymore’ mean INS hassles and registration and things like that? Or did it mean that regular people treated you with prejudice and hostility?

Also you mentioned your academic career. What are you studying? What do you see for yourself in the future? It seems like you have a rare circumstance, being multi lingual and able to move between cultures.

.... from my knowledge of Islam, its just like any other religion, it has its good parts, its bad parts, and parts that just dont make any sense. And again just like any religion, its open to how you want it interpreted.... Personally, I couldnt identify very much with it and have decided that its not for me... I think I feel the same way about Christianity.

The Spanish Empire conquered the Americas and killed and enslaved natives, doing it in the name of Christianity and saying they were bringing God’s kingdom to the heathens. Its riduculous for Christians to fight Muslims both thinking they are doing so with God on their side. And then claim religion is about brotherhood. We should instead be polarized along lines of rabid and unthinking fundamentalists vs humanitarians. Just my opinion.

What Israel is doing in Palestine is regarded in Egypt as terrorism, what the Palestinans are doing is regarded as defence, exactly the opposite of what you’d get in Israel or the US for instance.

No doubt its true the US is biased toward Israel. There are probably several reasons for that. One is that this country was part of creating the State of Israel after WWII. So we think we have an obligation to continue to support it. Another reason is there are millions of Jewish people in the US. They influence our politicians and policy because they are a large voting block and have weatlth and power. I think Americans are also offended by Arafat and his position that terror tactics are justified and Israel has no right to exist.

We hear about the suicide bombers and terror attacks around the world, and we say. “What the heck is wrong with those people?” We also hear about Palestinian homes and groves getting bulldozed, and we say, “I’m sure glad I don’t have to live with that.” Sometimes you think that the animosities go back to the Roman occupation and will never be resolved. Can they live together? What will it take?

I wouldnt associate it with islam but with the third world in general. The people are really traditional, and large scale changes seem to take forever.

We were talking about traditional habits and changing with he times. In the US we take for granted our newspapers and magazines and cable TV and radio, 24 hour satellite news, sources from the left and right, and hourly updates. Stock market reports up to the minute. Computers and internet. We vote every two years. Been to the moon, building a space station. Very twenty first century. Well, the first part of the twenty first century.

We truly cannot understand something like the Taliban. A mindset from the 14th century. They would actually sentence a woman to death by stoning for adultery. We have our kind of adherance to religion, but we don’t understand the fierce loyalty of radical Muslims. Martyrdom. And the hatred and anger. Fatwahs that seem to resemble Mafia ‘contracts’ for sins against the quran.

Some countries like Turkey, maybe Egypt, Iran under the Shah, were heading toward being secular Muslim states. But Iran showed they can turn around and go the other way again. I’m wondering if we should even try to help people we consider ‘backward’ to become more progressive. Or if we just need to try and understand them and let them be?

I for one think that it would be nice if I can go back after my PhD and start teaching stuff to the new gen of kids. Could be naive, but its the only way out to bridge the huge gap in like a couple of generations’ time.

So its in part up to guys like you.

But they would be furious to see the US there and will regard it as an unlawful occupation. More people will be radicalized? You bet!

That’s what bothers me these days. We’re going to make it worse. Some people think, hey war is hell. They started it. Who cares if they don’t like us? Lets just bomb them and that’ll show ‘em.

I don’t think they understand who “them” is.

Perhaps the solution would be for the US to drop 200,000 Martins over Iraq or something, and provide them with a cable connection.

Yeah. I might rather see my tax dollars go that way. What sort of music do you like? You mentioned Lennon/McCartney. I’m trying to learn some jazz/swing stuff these days. Probably ought to spend more time practicing and less on the computer. I could ask a hundred more questions, but I’ll quit.

posted 01-20-2003 03:30 PM               

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Originally posted by Bill Hammond:
Yeh, everything printed in the world's thousands of newspapers and magazines, and seen on TV and radio, carries relatively little value. In fact, it is all so worthless that we need to put quotation marks around the word "news" because everything produced by that sector is incompetent and biased and could not possibly qualify as news.

And all lawyers are corrupt liars and all doctors are money-grubbing butchers.

It's so simple!

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Point taken. Media is a term that begets generalization. But, i'd offer no similar qualification or apollogy for "popular media" or network news, or even "TV news". Heck, tried to catch some news this weekend, Bill. What i viewed from the usual suspects (fox and cnn) were wall-to-wall coverage of some kidnapping/missing person case in california which apparently occurred about a month ago! The editorial decisions are so peculiar as to lend themselves to conspiracy theories. They fed us wall-to-wall OJ, but that's probably because we deserved it. Chandra Levy and this california case don't offer enough relevance to interest even the most morbid tabloid reader: but, here we are with "live" coverage from Modesto.

Anyway, the comment was not intended to slight anyone's vocation (unless they are editors with cnn or fox, in which case they're not reading this anyway, burdened as they are with weird little sordid crime stories and celebrity tidbits).