posted 01-14-2003 02:32 PM               

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Originally posted by alanhoustontx:
I agree with the folks who say that the USA is entitled to deal with the people responsible for the 9/11 attack on New York and Washington D.C. ...? And, do we need leaders who pretend the Saudi's are our friends while the Saudi's hands are still dripping with American blood?

Al

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Standing ovation for you Al. (and for your post about Vietnam in the other thread)

posted 01-14-2003 02:33 PM               

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Originally posted by The Evan:
LeCado, that was a great post. I find, somewhat to my surprise, that I agree with every point. I'm so accustomed to being contrary and peeing in everybody else's pond that I'm not quite sure what to do with myself...

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posted 01-14-2003 03:12 PM               

I also do the best I can at researching current events and try to find multiple sources of the same stories--sometimes a very difficult objective to accomplish--and do not simply believe what Ari Fleischer(SP?) has to say.

I vote, make phone calls and write letters to my legislators, including those residing in the White House, expressing my concerns and fears. I also excercise my patriotic duty to voice my opinion by peaceful protest, when I feel that my government is not behaving as I feel it should.

I try to be a polite pedestrian, bicyclist, and operator of automobiles. I've just recently decided to read as many books on non-violence and its practicioners as I can lay hands on. And, I've initiated a thread here to enable the sharing of peace related resources. Engaging in a dialogue about peaceful conflict resolution is at least a step in the right direction.

Peace must begin within each of us and only then can it spread. What are some examples of actuating peace?

My older brother, a Viet Nam Vet, ex-seminary student, and PhD in Anthropology, is a fervent peace activist. He went to Nepal last year as part of an international group who sought peacefull resolutions to conflicts in the region of India, Nepal and China. Did they create peace in the region? No, they didn't, but they made the effort and touched many lives in a positive manner and assisted local villages repair roads that were damaged by heavy rains. (That is stabilizing behavior.)

The mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, in Buenos Aires, by peacefully marching every Thursday afternoon helped bring an end to the violence, murder, torture, and disappearances in Argentina . Disappearances, I might add, perpetrated by Military men who were trained in the art of State terrorism by the School of the Americas, back before it was moved from Panama to Fort benning, Georgia, in 1984.

Chuck

posted 01-14-2003 03:58 PM               

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Originally posted by cbouscaren:

My older brother, a Viet Nam Vet, ex-seminary student, and PhD in Anthropology, is a fervent peace activist. He went to Nepal last year as part of an international group who sought peacefull resolutions to conflicts in the region of India, Nepal and China. Did they create peace in the region? No, they didn't, but they made the effort and touched many lives in a positive manner and assisted local villages repair roads that were damaged by heavy rains. (That is stabilizing behavior.)

The mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, in Buenos Aires, by peacefully marching every Thursday afternoon helped bring an end to the violence, murder, torture, and disappearances in Argentina . Disappearances, I might add, perpetrated by Military men who were trained in the art of State terrorism by the School of the Americas, back before it was moved from Panama to Fort benning, Georgia, in 1984.

Chuck

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These efforts are admirable and humane in the spirit of Ghandi, etc. Nobody is arguing about that. But, it's a might stretch to apply these examples, all good ones we need more of, into dealing with an international biological or nuclear threat.
Hey look, I think Mother Theresa exemplifies what I want us to all to seek personally in our lives. But, I would never put her up against Stalin. For that, you need an Eisenhower. Now, does that mean Eisenhower was not an admirer of peace?

The point is, you can't simply say let's go read some books, burn some patchiouli oil, and meditate our way into peace. Dovishness is not equal to "for World Peace". Non-violence is extremely effective MOST of the time. In this case, I say we have little choice. That does not make our tactics dor peace pro-war.

posted 01-14-2003 05:27 PM               

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Originally posted by LoopySanchez:
They've already done it. And both sets of commercials are nonsense. Yes, alternative fuel sources should be pursued--It's just a matter of a few generations before the oil starts drying up.

But if SUV's support terrorism, then so do Honda Civics--Just less. It's not like fuel efficient cars run on "terror-free" gas, and we only started buying oil from terrorist- sponsoring nations when the mean old SUV's came onto the scene. Fuel efficiency is a great goal. The market has worked to create such vehicles, and it will work again. Notice the trend towards hybrid station wagonesque SUV's with better gas mileage in the past 2 years? It's no different than when the first compact cars started coming out in the 70's as a response to the oil crisis back then. Machismo will only last so long on the SUV dealer's lot when gas goes up to $2.50 a gallon.

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I see your point that Honda Civics do not run on "terror-free gas, and I think we agree that a small trend has started w/ hybrid cars. In the "macro" sense, you are right. But I think that in a fairly short (5 year?) period we could effectively triple US transportation effieciency, which would significantly drop demand, or, more importantly, drop OUR demand, which would have a drastic negative impact or the middle east countries ability to afford WOMD.

posted 01-14-2003 05:52 PM               

In my brother's case you might get away with your last statement, as he was not under attack by anyone, though communist rebels in the area were very hostile and they did fear for their lives.

BUT, the mothers of the Plaza de Mayo flew in the face of terror! They began marching in the presidential plaza in Buenos Aires while disappearances were still very much taking place, in fact some of them were disappeared for having the gall to stand up to the government and demand to know what happened to their loved ones. Their defiance was non-violent: they marched in a circle, wearing black. They, and the publicity that they attracted, played a major role in the cessation of the disappearances.

What DID happen to their loved ones, more than 40, 000 of them, some just out of high school, was kidnapping, jailed in clandestine cells, tortured--crushed testicles, electric shock, beatings, rapes, visceration of pregnant women, etc., prior to secretly disposing of the bodies.--again, methods taught in the School of the Americas, paid for by US citizens!

Reading, can open your awareness to small little stories like this that just don't get much press in the US. I urge you to read "Circle of Love Over Death" by Matilde Mellibovsky. You may just agree with me more that non-violence can be a powerful tool.

These mothers were continually bullied by police and the military for bringing into the light what the powers that be wanted to remain in darkness. It took enormus courage to even assemble once let alone every week! Most have never found out what happened or who personally was respponsible for the disappearance of their respective loved one(s). These otrocities were carried out in the name of national security. If the US can train others to treat their own citizens that way, don't think that that can never happen here: that's what they once thought in Argentina too. Remember, Ollie North proposed arresting US citizens--and housing them in tent camps on closed US military bases--who were protesting US involvement of similar atorcities being comitted by yet more SOA graduates in Central America. The Reagan administration was calling us "pinkos" and "commie sympethizers."

posted 01-14-2003 08:30 PM               

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Originally posted by LeCado:

I see your point that Honda Civics do not run on "terror-free gas, and I think we agree that a small trend has started w/ hybrid cars. In the "macro" sense, you are right. But I think that in a fairly short (5 year?) period we could effectively triple US transportation effieciency, which would significantly drop demand, or, more importantly, drop OUR demand, which would have a drastic negative impact or the middle east countries ability to afford WOMD.

I haven't seen the commercials equating SUV's w/ terrorist - you live in one of those commie-hippy states like Washington?

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Actually, I haven't seen the entire commercial either. I just caught the details of it on some TV news byte that was discussing it.

posted 01-14-2003 08:49 PM               

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Originally posted by TDR:
Twenty something white boys driving beater Camaros and sporting bad teeth, tatoos and a mullet get pulled over disproportionately too. But they don't have a lobby.

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Ahh, the 80's....loved 'em. I was 2 for 4 on that count. I had the "bitchin' Camaro" and the mullet, a 78 Z28 and a half perm to be exact. Awful photos. But, I did have decent dental and no tatoos.

I think anybody in a Camaro is likely to get pulled over. I got pulled over 5 times as often in a Camaro vs. the VW's I've had since. You're right, there is no pro-Camaro lobby. Another acronymn waiting to be born: the American Camaro Liberties Union.

posted 01-14-2003 11:54 PM               

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Originally posted by daved:
China has weapons of mass destruction. So does N Korea and Pakistan.... yet there is no call for an invasion of those countries.

Prediction: there will be no invasion of Iraq until late autumn 2003. Karl Rove won't have it

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Suppose Saddam had his vile human rights record and his nasty toys, but Iraq was in outer Mongolia. No oil anywhere near. Would we be looking at the same scenario? All our domestic reserves and supply doesn't answer a small fraction of our consumption. Does anybody doubt its about the oil?

Springtime is the right time. Cooler weather, less sand and dust. Those turbine driven tanks don't like the dust. Besides they're set to go now. Or in Feb anyhow. They aren't likely to sit around all summer waiting for Karl.

On today's news, the pres was talking about disarming North Korea. Now maybe the world will be a better place with a disarmed Saddam and a disarmed N Korea. Hard to argue with.

posted 01-15-2003 10:44 AM               

If white KKK members kept being convicted of burning crosses in the front yards of African-Americans, would it be considered racial profiling the next time it happened to narrow your search to white males from the start ? Or would you randomly question an equal percentage of blacks and whites in the community, in the interest of avoiding "profiling"?

Peace,

Don
[/B][/QUOTE]

Good points, Loopy. Respectfully, i'd say the analogy suffers a little by not recognizing the distinction between an "investigation" and a "security search". Investigations are undertaken with a suspect description, and people matching that description in a particular area may be stopped and questioned. A security check is a much broader brush.
Or, to amend your analogy: Imagine that there has been a rash of cross burnings, and law enforcement develops a plan to abate it by stopping each vehicle entering the city, and conducting full searches of any young white man. I'd think that the objections of white guys were pretty well-taken.

Not that there's any simple answer to this. As Bill points out, emperically, the perpetrators of 9/11 fit a distinct ethnic profile. So, if security checks adopt that profile, it may be a logical response. I don't argue with that. But, forgive me for having a lot of empathy for the VAST majority of folks within that profile that are peacable, loving people being strip-searched for having the wrong skin pigmentation or worshipping the wrong god. If our response to OK City had been to bomb Michigan, or select goofy-looking white christian guys as potential militia members when they rent trucks, I wouldn't feel any better about it, i guess.