posted 01-22-2003 03:35 PM               

Hi M_P,
Just wondering, does 'not welcome anymore' mean INS hassles and registration and things like that? Or did it mean that regular people treated you with prejudice and hostility?

The people (at least the people I know) where super nice post 9/11 and some even suggested I stay with them until the subsequent wave of hate crimes ended. Generally everone was cool about it.

But here's what happened: I was changing schools because I was going to USC for my PhD. I dropped by Egypt in the summer to say hi to my friends and applied for a new visa (mine is valid till 2005, but you should apply for a new one if you intend to go to a different school.) I applied on June 18th, and the US consulate responded that they have to perform a security check on me first. I have always had an American visa since I was 10, so I figured it would be easy for them to do that. Anyway, to make a really long story short, June ended, July ended, and August ended. By the end of August, USC canceled my funding source, which was a teaching assistantship, because I was not there when the semester started and therefore cant assist in anything. Having no funding meant that its impossible to go. Luckily, I had applied to McGill in Canada. I went to the Candain consulate in early September, got a visa in 5 days, then went to Montreal to attend McGill.

Then, the US sent me an email in November, saying they finished the security check and I can get a new visa, which is soooo ridiculous because in the documents I provided it says that this student cant come any later than August 16. But anyway, it took them 160 days to decide on giving me a new visa, eventhough I had one that I could use to enter the US if I was still going to my old school!

But in hindsight, with the recent addition (6 days ago) of Egypt to the list of countries whose citezens have to undergo this special registeration thing, maybe it's better that I'm not at the US currently - I could have been detained or something for god knows what.

Also you mentioned your academic career. What are you studying? What do you see for yourself in the future?

I'm studying computer science. I mainly work on artificial intelligence. Thats why I wanted to go to USC. They have one of the best AI programs. After the PhD, I'm definitely going into academia, though still not sure where - of course my first choice was the US, now probably Europe. I wil also try to maintain a close tie with Egypt as well.

Its riduculous for Christians to fight Muslims both thinking they are doing so with God on their side. And then claim religion is about brotherhood. We should instead be polarized along lines of rabid and unthinking fundamentalists vs humanitarians. Just my opinion.

I think this should be everybody's opinion! But it seems that people enjoy having teams and the whole mentality of my team is better than yours thing; good in sports, senseless in life. But for some people, the sense of wanting to belong to something can easily blind them from seeing things in the right way. I guess its human nature, I'd get mad at anybody who asserts that a Martin is better than a Taylor and all my clothes have McGill all over them, it cant be easily avoided.

They (TDR means Jewish folks) influence our politicians and policy because they are a large voting block and have weatlth and power. I think Americans are also offended by Arafat and his position that terror tactics are justified and Israel has no right to exist.

To me, this guy is a prime example of every thing thats wrong with the middle east. An old, sick guy (he has Parkinson's) who has fully demonstrated his inability to improve the situation. BUT the people still want him to be their leader!!!! It's just so weird. I dont understand it and cant explain it to you. But this is a trend in all arab countries. The rulers are some sort of demi-gods, and can only be replaced if they die or get killed (I remember I once asked my mom 'Hey - Mubarak has been president for so long, dont you think we should have another president? And she says 'naaah, maybe we'll get somebody who will be worse than him', I think this story says a lot.) Arafat would blame everything on the Israelis, who of course are making things hard, but if you're smart enough you should be able to deal with that. He can only whine about it. Totally incompetent.

Sometimes you think that the animosities go back to the Roman occupation and will never be resolved. Can they live together? What will it take?

I dont know. Israel is a first world country, Palestine is a third world 'country'. They live on the same land and have a huge, huge gap between them in terms of everything else. It will not be resolved in our life time; we will not see it. But maybe we can set them in motion towards it.

We truly cannot understand something like the Taliban. A mindset from the 14th century..we don’t understand the fierce loyalty of radical Muslims. Martyrdom. And the hatred and anger. Fatwahs that seem to resemble Mafia contracts for sins against the quran.

Ignorance is the reason. Under-education and lack of economic opportunities. If I dont have a job and cant read a book and dont appreciate music and dont have any sense of aesthetics (because perhaps I didnt have a chance to refine my senses growing up and worrying about lunch everyday) then I might as well become a terrorist or an extremist or something that will make me show the world than I'm not a nobody as you all think and can influence your life more than you can imagine. Even more, I'm ideologically better than you and you're wrong and I'm right. Self-delusion at its finest. I strongly doubt Khomeini ever read The satanic verses. But giving a mafia contract to kill Rushdie will make everybody know the name Khomeini throughout the world.

I'm wondering if we should even try to help people we consider 'backward' to become more progressive. Or if we just need to try and understand them and let them be?

Well, from the last point, you can see that the solution would be to educate these people and expose them to the world. How to do that I dont know. But remember, most of these middle eastern countries have been occupied by the British, French, or whatever. Egypt (which has been occupied by both ) for instance has been a country run by its own people for only 50 years now. Its still in its infancy. The people use the term democracy but dont know what it means. These places need to be helped, education is one good way to go about that.

Lets just bomb them and that'll show 'em. I don't think they understand who 'them' is.

Definitely. And the backlash would be just incredible. More terrorists created = More chances one of them will get through and inflict damage. Then we'll start the cycle all over again. Stupid.

What sort of music do you like?

Mostly folk and rock. Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Elliot Smith, Neil Young..genrally anybody with an acoustic guitar making simple songs. And as I mentioned, I'm a religious follower of Lennon and McCartney. I know the chords to every single Beatles song except 'The night before' on 'Help!' Jazz, I always had the idea I'll like it when I get older

I could ask a hundred more questions, but I'll quit.

It was quite enjoyable for me. Glad there were others who liked it as well.

Take care,
--m

[This message has been edited by MediocrePlayer (edited 01-22-2003).]

posted 01-23-2003 10:02 AM               

Nice to hear from you again. From the things you write, it sounds like there is the 'two worlds' phenomenon all over the middle east. There you are a world traveler and developer of artificial intelligence systems, and you go home to find your countrymen struggling with age old issues of poverty and powerlessness.

We see the same things, with maybe slightly less extremes, south of our borders. I guess its all over the world.

You said:

With the recent addition of Egypt to the list of countries whose citezens have to undergo this special registeration thing, maybe it's better that I'm not at the US currently.

I know indirectly of several people who have had to get sponsors and proof of employment, plus an immigration lawyer to move their case forward. Seems the INS has taken a lot of flack lately and they're tightening up.

...for some people, the sense of wanting to belong to something can easily blind them from seeing things in the right way. I guess its human nature..

Yup. Twentyfirst century tribalism. We haven't come as far as we'd like to think.

The rulers are some sort of demi-gods, and can only be replaced if they die or get killed.

More tribalism. We need a healthy skepticism about all those who would ride the power horse. Hold them accountable. Expose corruption. Replace them as necessary. Government of the people by the people for the people is one of the great notions this country is founded on. But it means people have to be informed and get involved.

Ignorance is the reason. Under-education and lack of economic opportunities. If I dont have a job and cant read a book and dont appreciate music and dont have any sense of aesthetics (because perhaps I didnt have a chance to refine my senses growing up and worrying about lunch everyday) then I might as well become a terrorist or an extremist or something that will make me show the world than I'm not a nobody as you all think and can influence your life more than you can imagine. Even more, I'm ideologically better than you and you're wrong and I'm right. Self-delusion at its finest.

I think a lot of us can see that as a way to characterize the terrorists. The person you just decribed is a hopeless and defeated person. The problem is its a small step for us to say, "Too bad. His problems aren't my problems and I can't solve them for him. But he's declared himself my enemy, so he's gotta go."

But what if there are going to be many thousands of people in that category? I don't see much discussion of other ways to deal with the root problems so far, besides military solutions.

Also Mohammed Atta and some of the other 9/11 hijackers weren't from desperate circumstances. They were university students.

Well, from the last point, you can see that the solution would be to educate these people and expose them to the world...The people use the term democracy but dont know what it means...

You mention Egypt as a country in its infancy. But there sit the pyramids, 5000 years old.

Education is a wonderful and necessary thing. I wonder how fast you can expect to change a culture with education, or how desireable it is to try to make them over. Maybe they have to go thru their changes in their own way.

I don't know what kind of 'reconstruction plan' the US has in mind for Iraq, post invasion. No doubt they will emphasize stability. And they will give at least lip service to democracy. Are a mixed buch of folks like the Iraqis really going to have democracy? They never have had it, may not even want it or know what to do with it. It requires being informed. It requires a certain attitude and willingness. Not sure it can be imposed.

posted 01-23-2003 11:12 AM               

But here's what happened: I was changing schools because I was going to USC for my PhD. I dropped by Egypt in the summer to say hi to my friends and applied for a new visa (mine is valid till 2005, but you should apply for a new one if you intend to go to a different school.) I applied on June 18th, and the US consulate responded that they have to perform a security check on me first. I have always had an American visa since I was 10, so I figured it would be easy for them to do that. Anyway, to make a really long story short, June ended, July ended, and August ended. By the end of August, USC canceled my funding source, which was a teaching assistantship, because I was not there when the semester started and therefore cant assist in anything. Having no funding meant that its impossible to go. Luckily, I had applied to McGill in Canada. I went to the Candain consulate in early September, got a visa in 5 days, then went to Montreal to attend McGill.

Then, the US sent me an email in November, saying they finished the security check and I can get a new visa, which is soooo ridiculous because in the documents I provided it says that this student cant come any later than August 16. But anyway, it took them 160 days to decide on giving me a new visa, eventhough I had one that I could use to enter the US if I was still going to my old school!

But in hindsight, with the recent addition (6 days ago) of Egypt to the list of countries whose citezens have to undergo this special registeration thing, maybe it's better that I'm not at the US currently - I could have been detained or something for god knows what."

All I can say is talk to the 175 of my dead fellow employees about how you have suffered since September 11th.

posted 01-23-2003 12:00 PM               

There are many of these people out there in countries like Egypt, where the religious leaders breach a daily hatred of Americans, Christians, Jews, etc.

So, what I am saying is that it's too bad if we now take precautions to prevent the slaughter of other innocent Americans by these people, and I have no sympathy for people, who are not citizens, who don't like the rules that have been developed to protect other Americans from being murdered.

posted 01-23-2003 12:14 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich:
No, I'm not blaming him for 9/11. However, 19 male muslims from Arab countries came to America to slaughter innocent Americans, because they believed that their religion entitled them to commit atrocities.

There are many of these people out there in countries like Egypt, where the religious leaders breach a daily hatred of Americans, Christians, Jews, etc.

So, what I am saying is that it's too bad if we now take precautions to prevent the slaughter of other innocent Americans by these people, and I have no sympathy for people, who are not citizens, who don't like the rules that have been developed to protect other Americans from being murdered.

Frankly, if they don't like the new immigration rules , then they don't have to come here.

---

If what you are saying is the way things should be then Mr. Bush should stop calling the US a "beacon of freedom". Picking on the millions of people in these countries who did not commit the crime is exactly what Bin Laden wants America to do.

BTW, there aren't any new immigration rules. Many of the people picked up were simply doing what INS had told them were proper procedures. INS is selectively punishing thousands of people for the actions of a few. For no other reason than their ethnicity. If I had been from one of those countries they may have done the same for me.

posted 01-23-2003 12:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich:

All I can say is talk to the 175 of my dead fellow employees about how you have suffered since September 11th.

---

posted 01-23-2003 12:23 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arch Monkey:
No Samchar there is no other side. There are 200,000 sides and that's just for the people who showed up. While it would be nice to put in the point of view of each and every person who claims to have a stake in this, that wouldn't be news either. If you want equal coverage, get 200,000 of your pals and head for Washington. Actually, since conservatives, by definition aren't social activist you could probably get equal coverage with much fewer people, maybe a couple of thousand.

Personally I don't see how a person could be a good reporter and also be what Americans call a conservative. Conseratives, also by definition are somewhat closeminded. I'm not saying it is bad to be conservative, Just that if you are you're probably not cut out to be a reporter.

---

Come on, people. I'm not suggesting that the media report, specifically, that 200K were there but 200 million weren't. That would suffer the same problem that it currently does, it would offer "facts" and angled-headlines without context. (That might actually be how Limbaugh would do it though. But, Limbaugh is less a journalist than a conservative opinionator.)

I'm suggesting that if they spend time talking about an "anti-war" movement, it behooves them to put it in the context of how "anti-war" or "pro-war" the country is that they are attempting to change. Remember, we collectively elected all those people that are supposed to be "moved" by the marchers.

Lastly, equating a conservative to close minded is the same as equating a liberal to anarchy. It's a joke. Both liberals and conservatives have firm seated beliefs. Both can be excellent listeners too, I might add. And, to suggest that conservatives aren't "social activists" or unable to be in the media is a targeted insult. Just because conservatives are active with different, and often opposing, social causes or movements than liberals, does not make them less socially active. You think William Bennett isn't a social activist for causes of the strengthening of family and education?

You've actually made my point. The problem is that the media usually only CONSIDERS someone a "social activist" if it's someone with the usual blathering on about "choice", explicit racial quotas, trade protectionism, gun control, fur control, wealth redistribution, vegetarianism, "free" health care, "free" prophalactics at school while providing ironically "free" day care, "free" education, "free" needles, "free" you name it, or some other such re-engineering under typical liberal morality. Any other person would be considered a "right wing", "Christian right", "conservative activist". Why doesn't the media call their normal cast of characters "liberal activists"?

Social activists, of all political beliefs, push us to strive for and execute on certain morals -- whether or not you believe (or with TV news: endorse) those morals doesn't make someone any less an activist.

posted 01-23-2003 12:35 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arch Monkey:

If Americans continue to allow Bin Laden the govenment to corrupt what this county stands for, I'm afraid that terror is overtaking courage and reason.

---

Arch, couldnt have said it better. Maybe we're both wrong, but the way I see it is with all the changes that happened recently in the US - Bin Laden wins. He's trying to shake the foundation of what makes this country so great. And if you guys do it to group X today you will do it to group Y tomorrow, and this is not what the United States is. Its what Bin Laden wants it to be.

And Rich, no religious leader in Egypt preaches hatered of anybody. As I said earlier, its a muslim/christian society. If there are underground movements that do so, then these people exist everywhere and have a viewpoint that is not really entirely different from yours.